I am looking forward to seeing you all on Sunday AM.. I doubt we'll talk much about this as a class, but if you take the time to read it, I'd love to hear your thoughts personally.
Sunday's lesson will be about Enduring as a part of our journey. John 16 presents a pretty tough theology when viewed through the prosperity Gospel lens but it is a good followon to our work in the past few weeks. How do we handle "less than prosperity"?
We should have a good opportunity to embrace our diversity. Conversation's depth and richness will probably rely directly on how prepared you all are for class..
Looking forward to learning from you all and with you all on Sunday.
Invite a friend or call Call a classmate.. either way, they will know that you care and it only takes a few minutes to say hello. I was thinking of you all for the last little while. Each of you..
jeff
NOTE: COMMENTS POSTED WERE FROM OTHER WRITERS MOSTLY... They look like they came from "jeff" but I just transposed them from other emails.
7 comments:
Good morning.
I’m sorry I wasn’t around to weigh in on your exchanges yesterday. I was in D.C. helping my daughter move. You have a lot of interesting thoughts here.
First I’ll admit I fall in the camp of “I’m far less concerned about the style of worship and far more concerned about that we worship and Who we worship.” Having said that, I’ll shift and address some of the comments in the article Jeff forwarded initially.
Yes, most single personality driven organizations, not just churches, are at some risk, but they can be very effect in the short term. Inevitably though, that leader will go away, either through relocation, retirement, death or disgrace. Why disgrace? Our enemy isn’t dumb. What better target to do major damage to a church? Most pastors aren’t careful enough, and most parishioners aren’t vigilant enough in their prayers for their leaders.
Yes, I believe a church can function with or without a “senior pastor”. Probably the most functional and effective church I’ve ever attended used this model. They were Plymouth Brethren - “those who gather as we.” But they were a very unique congregation, led by a handful of extremely devout elders – a very difficult model to duplicate. They did many thinks well, but if they lacked anything, it was vision. That’s where I think a leader’s role becomes most important. I believe the quote, “Just like no great masterpiece was ever painted by committee, no great vision ever emerged from the herd.” Think of the times God revealed a vision in scripture. It was most commonly to a single individual He was calling out as a leader. In our visioning process, are we watching for, praying for, expecting that visionary? It works best, I think, if this individual is the senior pastor. Anyone else lacks position power. But I would encourage that visionary to utilize a team to foster and implement the vision. Think of the model Christ established. He fostered and worked through His inner circle…
All for now. Out of time.
Steve
thoughts from a non-HRBC reader of our thread..
I haven't seen the thirst of evangelical youth for liturgy either. People have been saying that was going on for at least ten years now, but I haven't seen it yet. I have met some very on-fire young Catholics who are as activated about their ancient tradition as anybody in any denomination I've come across, but they aren't evangelicals.
I'm also unaware that our youth have lost their interest in celebrity.
A final response to the article -
As you know, I don't think the "leader" language is scriptural or theologically sound, and the article is permeated with it. Sorry to sound like a broken record, but based on the strangle-hold "leader" language has on the church in the U.,S., I think my idea bears repeating and developing. (And I think you and I actually see eye-to-eye on this, only you're still comfortable with using the language.)
I think our contemporary idea of leadership is based on business, athletic, and military models, as well as American ideas of individualism - some of which may not have even been around in the time in which the Bible was written. But that doesn't matter, because I don't think Jesus ever told us to be leaders anyway. There were plenty of leadership sorts of models available if he wanted to use them: general, emperor, overseer, high priest, etc. But he chose "servant" to tell us how to be. I don't believe "general" and "servant" could have been readily combined in the thinking of his day. They were two totally different things.
Our contemporary Christian culture seems to like "servant leader" which I think might be as incongruous as "slave general." Either way, "leader" conotes so many things to us now that may or may not relate to serving, and Jesus said "serve" not "serve lead." And when he said that, he was talking to the disciples, the very people who would be responsible for the church surviving beyond his time! Of all the groups that would need to be inspired to be strong leaders, you'd think they would have been it.
Also, he refers to himself as the good shepherd, and while we feel that's a lovely thing, you know shepherds were unclean outcasts of his society. I'm not sure he ever refers to himself as the king that he was. He just acknowledged that others said that of him.
Okay, that's my quiet, radical rant for the day. And I have to admit that I haven't read through the gospels specifically to make sure my idea really holds water, but I'm pretty sure it does!
--Charles
Fri, May 16, 2008 at 5:32 PM, wrote:
Interesting observations. When all of the information about Post-modernism came out several years ago, it was said then that Post-modernists will gravitate toward liturgy and ritual. We have been observing this trend and modifying what we do here at HRBC since. Did you know that our Pastor preaches from the revised common lectionary and has been for years? And thus our worship services, hymns, anthems, readings and songs have been centered around those same themes. We just didn't name them. When I first came to HRBC, we celebrated Advent, Maundy Thursday, and Easter. We have since referenced and observed Epiphany, Pentecost, All Saints Day and Lent to varying degrees and in various years. In this next year, we have already planned to have a more concerted emphasis on Lent beginning with an Ash Wednesday service where we actually administer ashes.
Just this week the staff met to plan for next year. The concept of becoming more liturgical was brought up and debated. The reason to do so would be for rich heritage and education and natural rhythm of the church year. The big question being, "Is it ethical to impose liturgy (primarily from catholicism) on a protestant Baptist congregation who deliberately chose when forming, to be a free, autonomous church?" There was no clear answer that day, but a clear leaning to continue on that journey to see where God is leading.
Blessings,
Phillip
Fri, 16 May 2008 10:21 pm
Subject: Re: Church Celebrity Deathmatch
Thanks so much for commenting Phillip.. I was beginning to wonder if anyone actually read all of this stuff I send out.. ;-) I know I can go a little crazy sometimes...
We haven't talked about the Liturgical calendar much in this Life Community, but it is exciting and encouraging to hear that our church staff is actively managing and wrestling these sorts of questions. I am personally excited to hear that we so formally utilize a liturgical calendar but also embrace the Baptist freedom for the Spirit to move as appropriate, as designated by our staff leadership.
In Open Door we don't often dive this deep in the application of theological principles to worship planning and its effect on our families' ministry so it is wonderful to think along these lines occasionally and remember all of the work that goes into our Sunday AM rituals.
NOW FOR THE PRIZE!!!
Since you commented.. you are hereby officially invited to attend the Guys night out.. all the meat you can eat event that Tim is planning.. Hope you can come..
jeff
Sat, May 17, 2008 at 8:16 AM, wrote:
I grew up in Southside Virginia in a church where much of what being Baptist was was being not Catholic. I still feel that much of what we do, and in some ways how we define ourselves as Baptists has roots in being not Catholic. That being said, I spoke with a Catholic priest long ago who felt that with Vatican 2, if it is totally implemented, that the Catholic church was becoming more "Baptist", as it was supposed to be in the beginning, and also that the Baptist church was beginning to become more Catholic, as the Catholic church was in the beginning. I think that he was talking about the fact that more and more non-liturgical churches were beginning to observe the liturgical ca lender, to a point, and that the corporate worship was in places becoming more formal in non Catholic churches while the separation of the priests from the people and therefor the people from God was diminishing in the Catholic church.
This being said, the first time I knew what Advent was besides a candy selling fund raiser for a Language class in my high school, was when I attended a Baptist church in Richmond. I never understood or thought much about Lent or any other season of the church. It is still new to me to think about the seasons, but I am glad the HRBC is looking into using them as a tool to achieve the desired end, to get members more involved with their walk with God. I think that we Baptists have lost out on some ways that we could become closer to God because it was done by the Catholics, so we certainly don't do them.
I have enjoyed the liturgical services that I have attended in the past. I feel that I have worshipped, and been in God's presence in that style of worship. That said, I do not feel that it would be a long term thing. It is a bit out of my comfort zone, which is good, but not something that would be as effective for the long term. The same thing is true about the worship we had with the church that shared our space for a while. I enjoyed that style, both when they shared the sanctuary with us, and when I have been privileged to worship in that style before, but for long term, well, let's say I like it more how I grew up.
Not sure what I have just done, it may be like a blog, and it may just be a waste of cyberspace, but thought I would get in on the conversation, and hope that it is applicable.
Wilton
May 17, 2008 7:39:58 AM EDT
Okay, let me get this straight.....
So Catholics aren't so bad after all, I see!!! Thank you very much!!!!!
The meat dinner, btw, is a major score Phillip! How is it that the ladies in the class don't rate, but Phillip does?!!?
Seriously, this idea of liturgy is something that resonates within me. Being a Catholic for many years, I do miss it. Yes, I hear what Phillip is saying about HRBC's use of liturgy, but it certainly is different to me. I enjoy more formal worship services; maybe because it takes me back to a special time in my high school years where I explored the catholic church on my own. I do have a special place in my heart for their ritualism/liturgy because it was the beginnings of my walk with Christ.
Thanks all of you for your friendship, openness, and sheer craziness : )) Jeff and I are privileged to call each of you friends and family, well most of you ; )) So kidding : )))
Tracee
Woo Hoo.. Now its On! I love Catholics, Baptists, and even an occasional Methodist and Presbyterian.. ;-) I am mostly afraid of the Pentecostals, but I am working on it.
Good to hear from you Wilton. We miss you in class while you have been teaching. I think the most interesting thing I get out of all these threads is the desire/interest to at least understand why we do what we do in "ritual". I think the PPT deck was great. How exciting that the youth are approaching worship and education that way.
Sorry Tracee, but all the Meat you can Eat Night.. Is specifically MAN TIME for the Open Door crew... Tim, we definitely now count Wilton in.. and if we can get Steve Smith to weigh in with a reply all, he can go too.. ..
No One said the ladies can't plan something too.. Last week, we just felt the need to "Eat some Meat". Maybe it came from the Holy Spirit.. who knows..
jeff
===OKAY.. now for the thinking part... if you are getting a little burnt on this thread, you should stop now.. ===
If we know what we are doing and why, Then we can make choices (intelligent, "protestant", maybe even "reformed") . That said, I also think there is value in not having to worry about the details and letting others take care of things. Trusting in the spirit to work through our leaders and us is valuable and avoids the trap of focusing on the theology and missing the relationships and love. Check out 1 Timothy for a great discussion on this one from Paul.
Fine line here. If we look back to John 16 in the lesson, we see even Jesus talking plainly and tactically..
23 -24"This is what I want you to do: Ask the Father for whatever is in keeping with the things I've revealed to you. Ask in my name, according to my will, and he'll most certainly give it to you. Your joy will be a river overflowing its banks!
25 -28"I've used figures of speech in telling you these things. Soon I'll drop the figures and tell you about the Father in plain language. Then you can make your requests directly to him in relation to this life I've revealed to you. I won't continue making requests of the Father on your behalf. I won't need to. Because you've gone out on a limb, committed yourselves to love and trust in me, believing I came directly from the Father, the Father loves you directly. First, I left the Father and arrived in the world; now I leave the world and travel to the Father."
Sooooo there is a place for great thought, and for just doing what we are told...We don't have to make it so hard.
I think the question here for me is who is doing the telling.. and where do I put my trust and faith. In this, one of the comments on the original thread was right on.. In a church, we are led by only one "head", guided by the spirit, .. and there are some important leadership roles: "church requires Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers."
This is fun.. thank for taking the time. Just remember, we can do this much faster when we talk in class.. particularly if we "prepare a way for the Lord".
see you in the morning!
Jeff
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